cool heating from vent, i can't get warm help plea

[jawjaw]

Hi all
we have had a great first season in Betsy our older stile Hi Lo. But on the last trip we decided to try out the van heater. after studying the citron manual i discovered how the controls operate. Unfortunately we only obtained a cool supply of air from the dashboard vents etc. Woolly hats and warm coats all the way home.
I have tried a number of things summarized below but all to no avail. Is this a common condition for the c15? I have read that some of the members use the van heater to warm up the living area so suspect I have a fault some were. CAN YOU PLEASE HELP?

THINGS I TRIED TO GET HEAT.

The heater blows out cool air. heater and all other hoses get hot after a wile. vented heater via hose screw with top up bottle in rad to increase water head. had engine ticking over for half hour fans did not start. have been for 100 mile trips all seemed OK. only tried heater since cold weather. head had been replaced pria to purchase. car rad has combined expansion tank. cant see any water leaks. heater blew out hot air once when i discovered how the controls work, but quickly became cool again. CAN YOU PLEASE SUGGEST ANY REASONS AND POSSIBLE FIXES.

Thanks for all the answers you have supplied to other members Ant. I find them very useful.

John

[ant]

Hi John.
As you've checked that you have plenty of coolant in the system I think your problem lies with the heater valve cable. Sometimes the bowden cable outer comes out of its clip, the fact that you got heat once then nothing also suggests the cable has come out. It's held at both ends but more commonly come apart at the top end. Remove the radio and ash tray, you can sometime feel where the cable has come out. Pull the slide knobs off and release the whole mechanism from the radio hole. You should be able to relocate the cable into its metal spring clip and refit it. ( a tip would be try the slide before refitting it as the cause of the problem is often a ceased valve lever and it may need some exercise before you can refit it).
The valve is located just as the heater pipes enter the cab on the passenger side, normally in a little bag.
Good luck.
Ant

[jawjaw]

Hi Ant
thanks for your prompt reply. I have just wondered if your suggestion could still be possible. I was a bit lazy and stood on my head to see under the passenger foot well. I spotted the plastic valve with out bag. after a bit of fiddling i located the red slider (heat) on the front of the ventilation unit and slid ti back and forth.
I could see the leaver on the bottom of the heater valve moving back and forth in unison with the slider.
Whilst still inverted i operated the white slider switch as well and heard the mechanism working. I assume this was some sort of flap inside the heater.
The heater end of the Borden cable was still in its clip. and every thing seemed to be operating. If the cabin end of the cable had come adrift would this limit the valve lever movement. the valve leaver traveled through about a quarter of a turn. i was wondering if his is sufficient.

When i got the blast of hot air previously mentioned i had been driving some time and was wondering if the heater radiator had just got hot due to a little trickle of hot water getting round to the valve and opening the valve all the heat in the slow moving water had been used up, hence it going cold.up till this occasion i had had the red slider half open.

i was also wondering if the engine was getting warm enough as during my investigations with the engine running outside my home for about half an hour i did not notice either of the car radiator fans start.

Thanks again for your help

John.

[paul]

Dec 12, 2008 10:40:13 GMT jawjaw said:

i was also wondering if the engine was getting warm enough as during my investigations with the engine running outside my home for about half an hour i did not notice either of the car radiator fans start.

Overcooling is a classic sympton of a failed thermostat. If all of the water in your cooling system is circulating all of the time then there is too much of it and it stays cool for a long time.

The thermostat starts off closed - to limit the circulation of water - then opens as the coolant temperature rises.

Failed thermostats usually default to the open position because although overcooling is not good for an engine it does not do the same, sudden, damage which overheating can do.

Thermostats are cheap and replacement is an easy DIY job.

[ant]

Hi John.
It sounds as if your heater valve is working ok, as Paul has sugested, it seems the thermostat may be at fault or as I susspect is missing all together! It is not uncommon for the thermostat to be removed if an engine is overheating ( you mentioned the head gasket had been done prior to you buying the vehicle), it may be that the thermostat was removed when the head gasket started blowing in order to stop it overheating. Well worth a look, if the housing comes away easily you know someone has been there before you.
Ant

[jawjaw]

Thanks Paul and Ant for your suggestion.

I tried to test the idea before i actually try to check the Thermostat.
I started by taking off the radiator cap and measuring how far down the water level was- about 5 1/2" from the top of the cap opening. I compared this with the hight of the hose coming from the thermostat and the outer end of the hose entering the radiator. both seemed above the water level in the radiator and i started to wonder if the hose could get air locked at the thermostat end.
Next i got under the van and located the fans thermostat in the side of the radiator. the rubber shroud came off easily and with a bit of wriggling the plug came off of the stat. the plug had 3 wires that i assumed was an earth and 2 live. i turned on the van ignition and measured the voltage between the earth and each live. i got about 12.3 vols. i then connected each live in turn to the earth first the fans worked slowly and the second time they operated faster. The wiring seemed OK but was the radiator thermostat O.K
I then topped the radiator right up and started the engine. I placed a round dial thermometer in the rad fill point and held a contact thermometer on the casing of the thermostat housing.
As the engine warmed up the expanding water flowed out of the rad. the heater pipes got warm quickly but the others stayed cold for a wile. Slowly the temperature on the thermometers climbed.the thermostat housing temperature eventually got to 50 Deg C but the hose coming from it to the radiator staid cool. Slowly the bottom hose warmed up.
When the rad thermometer (in the radiator watter reached 60 Deg C the hose from the engine thermostat got warm indicating that something had happened. Possibly the thermostat had opened or an airlock at the thermostat Had cleared. The small bypass hose from the top of the thermostat housing ha got warm soon after starting the engine. I waited for about an hour in total wen the radiator thermostat reached about 85 Deg C when the radiator fans cut in. the rad temp dropped to 70 and slowly rose to 85 wen the fans started again.
I turned ht engine off after this and let it cool down.
The head is bright silver color but the thermostat housing and 3 fixing bolts are darker weathered color so i think the thermostat housing has not been opened. but all the hose jubilate clips look new and shiny. as if the have been changed.
I am guessing that your suggestion about the thermostat may be correct. and the engine is running cool at 60 instead of about 84 Deg. That is assuming my old thermometers are O.K.
Further thoughts.
!. The thermostat is open but the hose to it gets air locked due to low water level.
2- the thermostat opens at 60 instead of about 83 Deg C.
3- If there was previous trouble with overheating and the head blew should i suffer and leave the present condition as it is.
4- a warmer heater would greatly help in demisting the windscreen and save me wearing all those woolly hats and gloves and heavy coats.

I will check the airlock idea soon by getting the warm water circulating all round. letting the engine cool down and topping up the water in the radiator whilst it cools. then from cold starting the engine to see if the hose coming from the thermostat gets warm straight away.
If it does get warm the a open or missing thermostat. If it circulates at 60 again then possible thermostat opening early.

Thank you both again for your ideas any more would be very appreciated.

John.

[jawjaw]

I forgot to say that with the rad thermometer at 85Deg the air from the van heater was warmer not as hot as i would have liked but warm. were as before the air from the dash board vents felt cool.

John

[jawjaw]

i am having trouble with my dial up connection again.
John

[jawjaw]

i am having trouble with my dial up connection again.
John

[paul]

Dec 16, 2008 18:13:13 GMT jawjaw said:

ideas . . . any more would be very appreciated.

You've mentioned air-locks a few times but coolant circulation problems can have other causes. You can get a build-up of sludge or scale, both of which can cause blockages.

There's some advice here on flushing out your cooling system. Might be worth considering.

[ant]

John.
I'm not sure what age your van is but I suspect its the age that has the coolant bleed screw on the thermostat housing ( an Allen screw) Otherwise its a cap on the off side fitted into a thin water pipe 9 looks like a wheel valve cap).
With the engine running, and a topped up radiator shut, open the bleed screw, allow the rush of air out, open the radiator cap ( carefully) and top up the radiator until water comes out of the bleed screw, shut the rad' cap and allow the bleed screw to bleed until a clear flow is running from it. tighten the bleed screw and leave the engine to cool without opening any part of the cooling system. check the level ( about two thirds of the way up the tank). If you follow this sequence you will rid the system of any air locks, I've tried many other methods but this one always seems to work well.
I'm sure you already know but, the outer vents in the C15 on the dash only let in fresh air, only the centre vents are connected to the heater system so don't send time trying to get warm air out of them!
Ant

[jawjaw]

Thanks again Ant and Paul for your suggestions.

I managed to locate the Thermostat Air Bleed. As you described it has an Allen key hole in the top. It is to the right of the of the wires coming out of the thermostat housing for the high temperature light. I did not realize what it was until i cleaned it up and saw the small hexagonal hole in the top and remembering your last guidance and concluded that i had found the vent at last. I tested it with an Allen key to see how tight it was also the three bolts holding the plastic cover for the radiator hose all were secure but not overly tight.
I had found all the spanners and decided that i would have to take off the the rad hose to get access to the lower left bolt holding the cover on.

I decided that as i had been topping up the radiator with water it would be a good idear to get some antifreeze. Off to the shops.
i told the guy in the shop that i wanted it for a Citroen C15. He said what color antifreeze do i want. RED or BLUE. i said that when i looked into the radiator it was GREEN

He looked puzzled and asked his colleague who said that they cold not get it any more as they only supplied the RED or BLUE[/b

Question. Can the GREEN still be obtained.

Is it OK to mix the colors. i.e top up the green with RED or BLUE.

Do i have to drain out the cooling system ad fill it with water and RED or BLUE anti freeze.

All this because i did not want to wear a woolly hat. Roll on summer.

Thanks again for your help.

John

[ant]

Hi John.
The colour is not normally important. The only thing that matters is that you don't mix Methanol based coolant with Glycol based coolant. The bottle will always say Methanol on it if it contains it, the Glycol based stuff ( now the most commonly used) has all sorts of slightly different names like Ethylglycol and Ethylamine, it all does the same thing and can be mixed. A 33% mixture is about right for all year round protection from freezing and engine corrosion.
Ant

[jawjaw]

HI
Hi Ant and Paul

Thanks again for your suggestions.
I bit the bullet and decided to change the thermostat. I opened the rad cap and opened the vent on the thermostat housing to drain as much of the fluid into the system as possible. I then took out the vent screw and cleaned the the vent holes in the screw and poked a bit of fuse wire down the screw hole to confirm it was all clear.
The thermostat bolts were reasonably tight but to get to the lower one i removed the air inlet duct from the front of the grill to the air cleaner, and the hose from the housing. this gave me just sufficient room to use a small ratchet spanner. I placed a small piece of plastic below the thermostat housing to direct the water away from the starter motor, then gently eased away the housing. the old thermostat came out cleanly. the new thermostat had a small bypass hole in it. i placed this at the top as i thought this would help in venting the air out via the air vent screw. Assembly went well and venting using ants method was good. as a check when the engine was running i tried the vent screw again and the fluid gushed out. this was greater with the engine going suggesting that the pump was doing its Job.
Unfortunately the heater did not work any better.
back to the drawing board and check the price of a heater and possibly try flushing the heater through.
hope the weather warms up soon.

John.

[jawjaw]

HI Again
Further investigations on where the heat has gone.
After looking up the details of a new heater matrix on the net i had to look again at the connections on mu heater. the drawing on the net mad me think it was the wrong one as the connections seemed deferent. Instead of being in a vertical position the heater is flat in the van. so i had found the correct one.
During this process i operated the heater slider switch and the valve arm was going back and forth. Looking very closely i noticed that although the leaver was moving back and forth the central screw holding the leaver on was stationary.
I removed the screw and leaver. THE SMALL SQUARE SHANK ON THE END OF THE VALVE WAS BROKEN OFF. the allowed the operating arm to move back and forth but without opening and closing the valve.
As i could not grip the end of the valve stem i cut a small slot in the end of it. with a small piece of hacksaw blade i managed to turn it a little more open.
After warming the engine right up i tried the heater a little bit better heat.
back to the valve . this had now got very stiff and took a lot of persuasion to close it a little. I carefully worked it back and forth. eventually closing it the air cooled down. but OPENING IT FULLY THE HEATER SEEMED TO WORK VERY WELL.
I suspect that at some time the valve became very stiff and a lot of pressure was used, this snapped the square shank off the end of the valve leaving the valve partially open. thus restricting the fluid flow through the heater matrix. The blast of hot air i got previously when switching on the fan was due to a small build up of hot water in the heater which rapidly cooled down due to restricted flow of fluid.
I now have full heat and will think about the benefit of replacing the valve at a later date.
ANT YOU WERE CORRECT WITH YOUR FIRST SUGGESTION ABOUT CHECKING THE VALVE OPERATION.
Thanks very much both you and paul

John