Engine overheating???

[jayjay]

Well, I finally went off in my little Bedford Rascal - to Aberystwyth to take Son#2 back to Uni...

there were no probs on the way there and we were heavily loaded, what with his stuff and mine, and two days of upping and downing and still there were no probs!

On the way back we were nearly home (100 miles each way) and the temp gauge started creeping up, but still within safe limits. We stopped at a service station (about 40 miles from home) as I needed a break, but when we went to fill up with petrol, I noticed a few spots of water underneath the engine, weren't sure if they were mine or not, didn't give it much thought and carried on homeward.

I was within sight of home, just 3 miles to go, when the engine started to overheat seriously, (we were in a long slow moving queue to exit from a duel carriageway) climbing nearer and nearer to the H on the temp gauge. I tried turning on the heater fan, but that was blowing cold. I stopped as we had to pick up the grandson for the weekend and stayed to chat for about 15-20 mins. Just two miles from home at this point.

Then we carried on home, very slowly and just made it. The engine was wavering around the beginning of the H point on the temp gauge.

Parked up and left to cool overnight. This am, I looked at the engine and yes, that water I saw when filling up with petrol must have belonged to my engine. The radiator had boiled and there was water underneath the plastic radiator reserve (radiator expansion tank, according to the owners manual) and the reserve was full to overflowing with water/antifreeze.

What on earth is going on? I thought the rad reserve was meant to feed water into the rad, not the other way around... I took the cap off the radiator and couldn't see any water in there, but it filled up to where I could see it with about half a pint of water. A quick trip around the estate and the heater was putting out a bit of heat again, warm anyway, presumably if I'd driven a bit further, it would have been blowing hot air. Must buy some antifreeze tomorrow as I know you should top up the radiator with that, rather than water, I think...?

I didn't thrash the engine coming home, however, I did drive a bit faster and actually came down some hills (with the wind behind me) at around 5o mph - would that have done it?

It overheated when I drove it home from the seller and we (i.e., the chap who drive it home for me) was definately doing 50 & above and it overheated big time. Mind you, the fan was blowing cold then as well. We thought it was the thermostat and that was one of the things the garage replaced recently.

We put some more water in and drove home slowly and it was ok again.

Since then, I've had the garage putting in a new thermostat, full service and fuel pump.

We came home with virtually no weight in at all, so not an overloading prob. I spoke to the garage this am, the chap there said he'd have a think about it, he was talking about a new cap on the radiator, said that could be the prob. Would that stop it feeding into the reservoir? We are all scratching our heads here. Any ideas anyone?

[Dabs]

Jay Jay,
Did the engine fan kick in at all whilst You were travelling or stopped? Another thought I had was do you have an air pocket in the coolant system,is it bled properly.Have You had the coolant changed at all since You bought the van.
Dabs

[martinw]

Hi JayJay,

If the spring in the rad cap is weak then the cooling system will not pressurize properly and cause over heating.

When the engine is refilled with water no air must be in the system, some engines can just be filled and are OK, but some require bleeding to get the air out yours may be like this, your book may tell you, or Ant may know.

If the heater was blowing cold then there was certainly air in the system, but it sound like you have a leak somewhere, and this must be fixed, and be for putting antifreeze in other wise it will get worse, antifreeze is funny stuff.
But as Dabs says it could be the fan not working, it may be the relay or just the fuse.
One thought, is it an electric fan or is it driven by a belt, which may have broken, does you ignition light go off when started or does it stay on, if it stays on the your fan belt has broken, and you have no cooling and no charging. HTH

Martin

[jayjay]

Hi Dabs, I can't say that I heard the engine fan kick in while I was driving, maybe it's that. The garage replaced the cam belt, but said they hadn't needed to replace the fan belt as it was fine. The garage also did a full service and changed the radiator water/coolant and bled the system I presume!

[jayjay]

Hi Martin! so it may be the rad cap, like the garage says.

It's not losing any oil.

My little book doesn't say anything about bleeding the sys when you put water in the radiator. It's only the little owners manual I have though, no great detail in it. The book says to check and top up coolant if necessary weekly via the radiator expansion tank. This was full to overflowing with water from the radiator when I checked the next day when it was cold, so I soaked it up with kitchen roll until it was back to the upper full level. And little or no water in the radiator, and a big puddle underneath the rad expansion tank.

As I unscrewed the rad cap and refilled with a bit of water, should I have bled the sys? (I wouldn't know how though). I drove it around the block and it was ok.. no lights on the dash, and warm air starting to come from the dash fan.

There's a section on overheating which says:
Probable reasons for boiling are
1. Topping up the coolant has been neglected.
2. Coolant has been lost from the drain point or a hose is faulty.
3.The fan belt may be too slack to operate the pump.
4. Flow through the radiator may be restricted due to the contamination of the coolant or a faulty thermostat.

re 1. It went in for a full service and they did check that this was ok at the garage. In fact, I think they drained the whole radiator sys and checked for leaks, etc, as it had already overheated when I drove it home when I bought it.

2. yes, definately short of water when I went the next day to check, it seemed to have boiled over into the reservoir, which was full to overflowing. Whether it had been lost from the drain point or a faulty hose I'm not sure - it just seemed to have boiled over back into the reservoir. I didn't check it before I set off for home, should I have done? I had only driven just over 100 miles.

3. Garage said fan belt was ok, but I never heard the fan kick in.

4. Just had a new thermostat fitted, can't be that, surely - after only 200 miles?

All the lights go off on the dash when the engine is running. So no clue there!

I will go and buy some antifreeze today, but will get the garage to check for leaks before I use it!

I'm baffled. why start overheating when I'm just 40 miles from home? Did I just drive too far without a break to let the engine cool down? It is, after all, 20 years old. Had a stop on the way there, but only about 15 mins. The engine stayed cool all the way to Aber, 100 miles, no probs at all - uphill mostly, with heavy load.

Is it just going to seriously overheat in a traffic queue - that's when it really started to overheat, although the temp had been creeping up for a while.

Thanks for your help! At least I know what to ask the garage to check, although I'm sure they have checked all this. Maybe (please, o please) it just needs a new radiator cap!

[Derek]

dabs said:

Jay Jay,
Did the engine fan kick in at all whilst You were traveling or stopped? Another thought I had was do you have an air pocket in the coolant system,is it bled properly.Have You had the coolant changed at all since You bought the van.
Dabs

I agree with Dabs, sounds like there is an electric fan which isn't kicking in. That would cause boiling and loss of coolant. It happened to me on the Astra. In my case it was the plug to the thermostat on the rad having been displaced but it could be the fan motor, thermostat or a fuse.

Question is, do you have an electric fan?

Derek

[martinw]

Saying all that, about electric fans, and I know they are different engines, but I cant remember when I last heard the fans on my camper or car switch in, they really don't need to unless the ambient temp is really hot or stationary for a long time.

Has the impeller on the water pump come loose on its shaft?

To check for water leaks the engine must be up to running temp and fully pressurized, and putting anti freeze in the system will soon find any weakness in pipes etc.

Then saying all that, when it did start to over heat you should have heard the fan come on, if it did would you know that it was the fan, perhaps you may have thought it was just another noise from the engine.

It sounds more like a loss of water, one way or another IE. an iffy pipe or rad cap, and not related to any fan problems.

Water in an engine must be properly pressurized at all times, which raises the boiling point of water, so therefor if pressure is lost water will start to boil and force water out of the overflow.

Perhaps you lost some water, out of a leak in a pipe, on the way there but kept enough to keep it running, lost some more on the way home until there was not enough water and then it started over heating.

??

Martin

[Derek]

Hi Martin

When I had the trouble with the Astra overheating I became aware of the problem in a traffic jam. The engine temp started going up big time and I had to switch on the heater to bring it down.

I think the electric fans only normally cut in when you are going slowly. Not a thing you take much notice of.

I was assuming that Jayjays engine had gone into an overheat state and blown the water out.

Another horrible possibility is a blown head gasket, my Astra one went about six months after the overheating saga. I was told that this was not unusual after a modern engine had overheated.

Lets hope it is just a small leak or the rad cap as you suggest.

Derek

[martinw]

derek said:

I was assuming that Jayjays engine had gone into an overheat state and blown the water out.

Hi Derek,

Yes this is probably what happened, but why did it go into over heat?

I did think about the head gasket, but dismissed the idea because, all tho it had previously over heated and could have blown the head gasket then, she would not have done nearly 200 miles with a blown head gasket.

This vehicle certainly has the right name (Rascal)

Still puzzled

Martin

[ant]

Hi Jayjay.
All of the above have some truth however its very easy to make a problem more complicated than it needs to be.
Firstly you need to establish where the water has gone. If you dip the oil does it look like " Baileys" coffee liquer, if so the head gasket has gone, causing the engine to over heat. Is the radiator leaking itself? Does the water come past the Rad cap when the engine is at running temp and on half thottle? Once you know where the water is getting out the cure will be fairly simple.
The unlikely but worse case is the head itself has a crack in it between two cylinders which only expands enough to leak when the engine is hot.
As for topping up the radiator and not getting air locks, the rascal was not too bad at sorting itself out once started.
My guess is the Radiator sender switch for the fans has failed, thus the radiator get very hot, the pressure inside increases and the spring in the cap ( which may also be weak) lets the water out. The engine over heats and the heater goes cold.
One consilation, the rascal engine does recover from getting quite hot, unlike the C15 Diesel.
Ant

[jayjay]

Hi Ant, thanks for your comments. Nope the engine oil is fine, clear as a bell - no probs there, no water in the oil. I'll ask the great lads at the garage to have a lookie re the other q's. I have a feeling its something to do with the fan, or the rad cap. Or both.

Hey Derek! It really is a Rascal, isn't it?

Hi Martin,

"Water in an engine must be properly pressurized at all times, which raises the boiling point of water, so therefore if pressure is lost water will start to boil and force water out of the overflow."

As the overflow (i'm assuming this is the rad expansion tank/top up plastic thingy) was full to overflowing, I think this might be the prob.

So probably just a leak somewhere and maybe an iffy rad cap and a radiator fan switch not working.

I'm going to print all this thread out for my mates at the garage - they are really great, sorted out no end of things for me! Including turning the gearstick around so it's easier to change gear for me. I wouldn't be without them! ;D

[jayjay]

Just a quick update and a quick question - have been down to my local spare parts shop and hey presto - they had a bedford Rascal/suzuki supercarry radiator cap new in stock at £4.60!! Seems someone had ordered one and never come back and picked it up! So I'll stick it on tomorrow and see how we go.

I'm unsure how much to fill the radiator - do you fill it right to the top - it doesn't say how much. I've also bought some anti-freeze so I need to know how much of each.

After I've sorted that out (which I can manage myself) then I'm going to run it around for a bit and see what happens! ;D ;D

Thanks for all your help, guys - wish me luck! ;D

[ant]

Hi Jayjay.
Fill the radiator to the top, ( cover the cooling vanes you can see in through the cap hole), then half fill the plastic bottle expansion tank.
Ant

[jayjay]

Thanks for that, Ant! I will have to get a proper haynes manual at some point I think! The antifreeze says to dilute 50-60% with water or 'use undiluted for full protection'. As I've already put some water in, I think I'll go for undiluted antifreeze to top up to the top. Hope I'm doing the right thing!

Another quick q (sorry to be such a pest) The plastic expansion bottle was full to overflowing after the overheating, so I got some out by rolling up kitchen roll to soak up the excess and it's down to the upper level (full mark) now. Should I take a bit more out? Thanks, Jay

Edited to add: Have now put on new rad cap, much better fit, seems much tighter and filled up the rad properly. Have turned the engine over and let it run standing for a while and the heater is running warm air, but I haven't been out for a run in her yet.

There's a white fan with a belt (presume fan belt) next to the radiator which seems to be working fine - is this the fan we were talking about earlier or is there another one I can't see? This fan next to the radiator kicks in as soon as you start the engine.

[jayjay]

Well, I topped up the radiator and put a new rad cap on, then went out for a drive - but only about 5 miles, thru the village and then down the main road back. When I got back I parked it and tried half throttle to see if there were any leaks - no leaks. (the garage had checked it for leaks the first time I took it in and there weren't any then either). Then I turned on the heater and it was blowing cold. Again.

so I've phoned the garage (they are hiding from me now!) and they said they will have it in sometime next week for another look. I suggested it may be the Radiator sender switch. The fan to the radiator (belt driven) is a little squeaky but working fine apart from that.

The water only seems to be going out of the radiator to the overflow when it starts to over heat.

Anyway, I'd like to thank everyone for their contributions :-*and hopefully the garage will be able to sort it out for me next week. will let you know what they say!

[Derek]

Hi Jayjay

I read on another forum, that I can't find now, that a water pipe across the back of the engine can get bunged up and affect the heater, also the rad can get clagged up. Are your local friendly mechanics used to little Rascals? If it were me I would be tempted to head for a Vauxhall agency, one of their older staff may remember the little Rascals funny little ways.

Derek

[Derek]

Found it ;D

A tip for all rascal owners: there is a heater pipe running under the engine. the metal pipe is what corrodes & clogs the heater & rad. Take it off & the rubber heater hose will reach down the drivers side instead. I did that to mine, flushed the rad & heater out & she hasn't used a drop of water in 12months. The heaters brilliant now as well.

www.carsurvey.org/review_99189.html

[jayjay]

Hi Derek, thanks for that! ;D

I've printed it out for the boys at the garage. I think I may need a new radiator as well, it looks like the original and I think this van had been standing for a long time. Might be all clogged up. Well something here is clogged up!!

My Dad's van started to overheat and the garage found that the rad was clogged up in some of the chambers, and he needed a new radiator - and it was a lot younger than my van!

Apreciate all your help! I'll get it sorted one way or another as I'm planning to go to Skye next May! ;D

[jayjay]

Update- I'm STILL waiting for the garage to fit me in. They promised to phone yesterday after I had spent all last week waiting for them to call, and they didn't phone yest either. So I still can't go anywhere nice, even for a day trip.

Don't think the garage boys are being deliberately evasive, they just have so much work on with winter services at the mo. I'm seriously considering seeing if I can find another garage for a quick lookie.. I was planning on going away for a few days camping before the end of the season and that's getting very close now!

Oh, and I've bought a Haynes Manual, so that should make interesting reading when it arrives!

[Graham]

Sounds like the garage boys need a swift kick up the posterior, I hope you get it sorted so you can get out and enjoy the van before winter arrives.

Graham

[jayjay]

graham said:

Sounds like the garage boys need a swift kick up the posterior, I hope you get it sorted so you can get out and enjoy the van before winter arrives.

Graham

Yes, I agree, and they haven't phoned today either. I'm getting very fed up about it. If they don't call tomorrow, I'm going to start phoning around the other local garages. Ah well......

[jayjay]

I called them, around dinnertime today They are picking it up in the morning to sort it out. Meanwhile, I had to make a decision about going away this weekend with my sis, so we are going in her caravan (she won't come in my van as she suffers from claustrophobia). I really really wanted to go camping in my vannie... Looks like the only place I'll be going camping this year is on my drive at this rate.